Cosmic Iguana - Voice of the Evil Doers

"In the province of the mind, what one believes to be true is true or becomes true, within certain limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended. In the mind, there are no limits"

John C. Lilly

not sure, but this topic may be worth further investigation (from a number of different angles, e.g., Rovian methodologies, etc.)

(one of the little details often overlooked in the let's-manipulate-others'-perception-as-a-means-of-controlling-them scheme is the distinct possibility that one ends up drinking the Kool-Aid. The Bush Gangsters are a classic example of this over-sight in action)

YES!!! VERY ASTUTE x174!!!
See BEHAVIOR: THE CONTROL OF PERCEPTION by William T. Powers.
Also see MESSENGERS OF DECEPTION by
Jacques Vallee.

This has very far reaching social implications.

Mr Iguana? Your served.

Landmark, like est, makes a big deal about "committment" and "integrity". Those words are very valued by business but can easily be rationalized. Can anyone doubt that Bush and Rumsfeld consider themselves high in both?

Landmark also teaches a beautiful escape hatch "committment to oneself" which you can always use to rationalize breaking other committments.

Remember Scientology (est's spiritual parent) defined Ethics as "removal of counter-intention from the environment" ... the exact opposite of any non-Nazi ethics I have ever heard of.

I went through the Landmark Forum in February. I found it informative, useful, and at the risk of sounding zombified, I had a personal breakthrough.

I'm 48 and brought to the program an open mind and I left with an open mind. Having said that, I wondered about Rumsfeld's bizarre statement the moment I heard the Landmark Education version. I don't doubt for a moment that he took the program; nor do I doubt that he'd be an asshole and a mass-murdering monster even if he hadn't. The "stories" idea is a metaphor about psychological perception, not a statement of fact. It's as useful as any idea in the mind of a sane, ethical human being, and more repugnant than most in the hands of a sociopathic freak like Rummy and the other Bush minions.

Landmark does have a cult-like quality to it, but so does any group with a core of true believers out to expand its influence. Read Eric Hoffer's The True Believer to find out how psychological pathology becomes social pathology. I hate everything the republican party stands for, but what they stood for 30 years ago looks pretty good by comparison to the so-called Democrats now. The point is ANY ORGANIZATION that has political and social power can be manipulated for bad ends, as for instance so-called evangelical christianity has morphed into some kind of shadow inquisition.

Is Landmark Education dangerous? No, Donald Rumsfeld is dangerous.

It's a common cult tactic to disassociate themselves from what their followers do. YOu put it well when you say "more repugnant than most in the hands of a sociopathic freak like Rummy". Ideas have power and for those too smart to be brainwashed Christians this is the perfect fodder. And it does lend itself so well for sociopaths, doesn't it?

I would say Landmark Education = somewhat dangerous, Donald Rumsfeld = very dangerous.

Werner Erhard was a sociopathic personality. He had affairs throught his life, stole materials from everyone he worked with, may have even committed incest.

Nevertheless he made a major contribution to the culture in the 70s. So many people in the movie industry did EST that they used to nickname Warner Bros as WERNER Bros. Lots of corporate Execs did it too. GIven the current corporate culture one wonders whether the contribution was all that positive or whether it was a sociopath teaching sociopathic principles.

There are no values taught, nor methods of improvment - it is all about getting what you want. Doesn't that sound just like sociopathology? or Bush for that matter?

Here's an article which summarizes Werner Erhardt's checkered history, including lawsuits etc-its from a christian website but all sources are mainstream media:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0140a.txt

Here's another good article on Landmark...

http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark72.html

In my opinion, Landmark and all of these things are a bit like drugs. They have good effects but on a certain number of people there are side effects like the suicides, depression, reinforcing psychopathology, and so on.

If Landmark were a drug, it would have to weigh the dangers with the benefits, and even a small number of serious side effects could prevent it from being on the market (At least that was the case before Big Pharma bought off the FDA).

Landmark can also be seen as being like a drug in that it treats symptoms, not underlying problems. It's all about redefining problems. That can create quick results, but the underlying problem is untouched.

Also like a drug, groups like Landmark are addictive. Although many people walk away after the first training, many others get hooked into taking seminar after seminar. Landmark graduates become the pushers hounding people into taking more courses.

Everything in life has its inherent limits and boundries of use, consumption, etc. Overconsumption or misuse of anything, including naturally 'good' things, will have signifcant consequences.

So, too, people have abused and misused the teachings of the est/Forum.

I was on a very unconventional life route, that, without having taken the Forum, I can be fairly certain would not have led to the beautiful life I now have.

I am thankful to be married to a wonderful woman, I have 3 terrific children, and a wonderful career as an attorney. The Forum, for me, helped me to remove many self-imposed barriers in my life, not the least of which was the practical ability to love and forgive. (I say practical because I always knew that love and forgiveness was 'right' way, but implementing those concepts was much more challenging, and something I was able to justify away.

I am quite certain I would not have my profession, as it stands now anyway, without the benefits of the Forum. I had never performed well in school, in fact, I had started and quit the college 3 times by the time I took the Forum. What happened? After the Forum, I examined what I really wanted in life, and created a path for obtaining it that simply was not available to me before. (Now, I can't say that I could not have developed this pathway without the Forum, but, what I can say is that in 30 years of life, I hadn't up until that point.) Long story short, I saw my aversion to general undergraduate work, but my love for the law. I found a way to law school without ANY undergraduate degree (though it required additional testing, etc.), I was accepted, graduated top 10 in my class, passed the Cal. Bar the first time, and have never been happier.

I know there's a lot of negative comments about the Forum, but I also know that most of it is from those who have not given it a chance. I doubt many of the naysayers are willing to try it, probably saying something like, "I don't need to try xxxxx to know it's bad for me."

There simply is no logical argument that will overcome one's resistance to being open to new ideas. And, this is especially true regarding the forum. Tue Forum is an extraordinarily paradoxical program, it both uses logic and defies logic to produce its results. I can't convince anyone to try it, but, I do invite you to consider checking it out yourself. I can promise you that whether get as much out of it as I did, or not, you will not regret having taken. And, if for some reason you find it a complete waste of time (I have yet to meet anywho in this category), all you will have lost is a some money and time. Still a loss, to be sure, but, I promise you the upside is much greater.

In any event, whether you take it or not, believe it or not, bash it or not, I wish you all well.

R.

Richard makes a good point. All these organizations do some good for some people. Scientology has helped Tom Cruise. I know one person who's life was saved by the Scientology drug "run-down" as they call it. The Catholic Church helps thousands of the poor and dying people in Calcutta. I assume Islam does a lot of good things as well.

That doesn't mean we should stop criticizing their abuses, just keep a balanced perspective.

I have not done Landmark, but I know dozens of people who have. I would not say it permanently helps people in any way I have noticed, but it does give them a high.

The one exception is people with a victim syndrome, sometimes can get off it and get on with their lives.

I think most people would feel they got something out of the first level of the course. But NEVER, NEVER, do anything else! That's where the brainwashing gets serious.

I did est. I did the forum. It is a risk, especially for psychologically fragile people. For me, it was the best thing I have ever done with years and years of aftermath insights and ... so far in 25 years ... no regrets.

Landmark is a cult.

All it does is use common sense and brainwashing to get you in. There's nothing "secret" about it, it's just skewed logic making the Company millions.

All the power you have is within you, you can unlock it without being brainwashed.

Interesting, I'd been thinking about this connection for a while and was googling the idea. Great minds!

I attended a Forum (the sales pitch) with a guy who turned out to be a real jerk (which confirmed my suspicions that if you're already a jerk, EST or Landmark could turn you into more of a jerk--I knew other jerks who were big EST promoters).

Struck me as prepackaged psychobabble. But like Franklin Covey time management seminars (which hooks you on their planner), it's something that easily could become the continuing education du jour at any number of corporations, pharmaceutical corps. included, which is where we would have found Rummy.

It's disturbing to think there are government leaders and corporate execs running around relying on the received wisdom of a prepackaged set of assumptions (oh wait, that's religion!). On the other hand, I also really really wish Bush had bought into AA for his substance abuse problem. 'cause he don't know jack about things like the "fearless personal inventory" and "making amends."

Reparations for the people of Iraq and New Orleans (among others...)

I bet Rumsfeld's words immediately rang bells with many who had taken the Forum, as it did with me...I did the est training in 81, then the forum, and did every course I could for 6 years...got a lot out of it....then abruptly I quit totally.
Why?...It is complicated...at that point I found an excellent Aikido teacher, and said THIS IS REAL....then a zen master,
who demonstrated pure compassion... and later a Gestalt group that helped me understand my own anger, fear, hatred, and its origins in controlling parents much better than est etc ever could have.
The problem is there was an inherent contradiction, as Werner himself was a controlling personality, as exemplified by certain aspects of his organization,
and that organisation conained aspects of abuse, hardwired into it and also manifested by certain staff members and of course by many of us volunteers and participants...it is hard to swim in muddy water and remain pure.

Nevertheless, Werner's courses opened these other doors for me. They were brilliantly put together, and worked...
they were basically not dangerous for someone who had a fairly stable sense of self and who was not for instance
too sadistic or power hungry.

Rumsfeld Bush and co. are on the other hand in my view sick and incredibly dangerous. Please read Bush on the Couch, by Justin Franck,
which explains a lot...it is truly a must read for anyone who wants to understand the roots of our current tragic situation.

It is sad to say the least that WErhard and est may have had a contibuting role in all this mess. There IS no subtitute for the truth, for love, and for a path with heart...

I think Rumsfeld and the neo-on cabal are complete idiots. They are a scary, fascist death machine more precisely. With that said, I think a different view of Rummy's comments are in order.

First, Rumsfeld recognizes the power of spin, message,or PR. The Bushies know that they can frame the debate. They understand that reality and context are a function of language. Thats why they call their assinine legislation things like The Clean Skies Initiative or No Child Left Behind or The Healty FOrest Act when in fact those bits of law are the exact opposite. Ever heard of the Death Tax? Republican speak for estate tax. They know that the media simply regurgitates what they say.

The fact that Rumsfeld's quote reads like it did suggests 2 things. First, that Landmark's ideas are very powerful. Powerful enough to interest the nation's leaders. Second, it shows that the Bush administration is set on shaping the debate in their favor and doing so with whatever lie is neccessary.

I have taken Landmark classes and enjoyed them. I got alot out of them. It is intense and they are always trying to get you to sign up for another class. At the end of the day they are a business. I happen to like their product.

As far as Rick Ross is concerned or the author and his claims Landmark sues everyone, it should be noted Rick Ross is a clown. Rick is a convicted felon with no training whatsoever. His claims about Landmark have been refuted by the American Psychiatric Association and other Cult experts that say Landmark is nothing like a cult. Landmark forces people to deal with the hard shit in their lives. Some people react negatively to that. Its natural.

?est, Werner and Landmark synthesize several existing philosophies about life. The idea that we create our own reality is as simple as the idea that "perception = reality." Landmark says that we create our own reality based on our past. This shouldn't really shock anyone. Recall all the pre-Iraq war lies. The neo-cons constructed a reality called "Saddam has WMDs." Interestingly, the idea that Saddam and al-queda worked together was quickly disproven, yet over 40% of Americans believe it. In other words, its reality for them. That what Rummy knows, thats what Hitler knew. Its propaganda.

These ideas can be used for good or bad. Thats how ideas work. In my Landmark advanced class, the leader said that the US military is very interested in this technology. Yet Landmark holds World Peace as one of its charter missions.

Discuss.

Having "world peace" as a charter mission is basically no more credible than the US having "world democracy" as its current mission.

It's called ideology.

Landmark, like EST before it, is a military model - break them down and build them into something "better" - not much different from boot camp.

I am getting suspicious of the rationale that ideas can be used for good or bad - it sounds like technology can be used for good or bad - yet I don't see much good about nuclear technology. Maybe some technologies ARE bad.

EST philosophy is essentially violent. It's all about selling, selling, selling, pushing a viewpoint until people believe it - propaganda - as you put it.

Can propaganda ever be good? Or is it essentially coercive? I think the latter.

PS: The article on Rick Ross's website was not written by Ross but by a mainstream journalist.

Also, A point about the perception=reality concept. That's Madison Avenue. Werner Erhard was a super salesman, he never did any personal growth aside from Scientology and its spinoffs, and not much of that. If that's credentials, then maybe take classes from Tom Cruise.

Erhard is a marketing genius no doubt. But essentially its not much more than postive thinking in a more powerful package.

I remember seeing a William Colby endorsement on the back of a Hunger Project book (an early est spin-off). Erhard himself mixed it up with Bucky Fuller, a known cold warrior with friends in the CIA. In other words, there's a long history of estians rubbing shoulders with spooks, trying to get in with insiders. Scientologists and Moonies are no different. Cults work this way as a matter of course, try to get connected, have friends in high places. Nothing really new here. How it plays out in the current scenario will be interesting to see. PS: I've been to Landmark events as a guest but have yet to enroll in the Forum per se.

Landmark Forum is:
*a brainwashing seminar
*a pyramid scheme (legal because the labor is volunteered)
*group pressure/peer pressure
*skilled at harrasement
*a 'targeted marketing coorperation' (believe it, those are their own words!)
*going to target YOU
*a neighborhood nightmare
*a social epidemic
*yes it IS a cult for the enthusiastic
*empty rhetoric
*a salesman that YOU pay to solicite YOU
*secretly writting down any information you share during the forum in order to solicite you in the future
*full of real estate agents, car salesmen, loan officers, travel agents and more who are WATCHING YOU (and taking notes)- don't worry they'll introduce themselves as new friends at a later date once they know what your interests are. They are the ones who will help you purchase, oops I mean realize your true potential
*not your friend
*bastardized philosophy and social science
*scripted
*owned by the former board members of EST
*a more 'polished' and up to date version of EST
*required to have you sign a consent release form because of all those messy suicide lawsuits back in the seventies and eighties during the EST version
*not therapy
*sneaky
*insidious
*a snake oil salesman with a friendly face
*full of ------ (fill in the blank) rhetorical logic riddled word games that give you that warm 'I got it!' feeling
*a really bad idea
*a family and friend 'divider' not 'uniter'
*encouraging spouses NOT to tell their spouses what happened during the seminar
*a really really expensive weekend, or more
*psycologically dangerous
*full of feel good fluff
*full of feel bad stuff
*wants you, your family, your friends, and your friends friends to sign up
*wants YOU to recruit them, free of charge- because intra personal relationships are the marketing mechanism of the future, oops, I mean TODAY
*a class rate con job
*not an accredited educational organization
*affects more people then you would ever guess
*fools 90% of them- and that's good business
*an amazing business model because they pay NO ONE except the 'Leader' and owners and venue. Imagine that 'Leader' walking away with $10,000-$30,000 a weekend.
*definetely not harmless psycobabble
*programs devotees to use Landmark jargon which creates a covert Landmark sales pitch that they will consciously and subconsciously use everyday on everyone they know
*lying to you
*using fancy diagrams
*and confusion
*profiling you from the moment you walk in the door
*going to give you a name tag with a secret profile number 1-5 in order to best 'market' you
*may be government sponsored or condoned in order to help keep the economy spending in these trouble times (because dollar bills don't do uncle sam any good getting stale under the mattress)
*feels like church, gone to HELL
*not going out of business any time soon
*a business designed for salespeople to circumvent the national "Do not call list"
*going to get your phone number and keep calling, and calling, and calling, and calling you
*MINDCONTROL- and no, it does not require wires or implants- just changing someones choice of words is how they start the snowball rolling
*did I mention a really REALLY bad idea to get involved with?

Open yourself to the possibility that con-men can wear nice suits and shiny shoes too. Remember that you are not allowed to take notes (but the salespeople in the back of the room are). Rackets? Lets keep the discussion on YOUR rackets, not Landmarks please. If you leave to go the bathroom you might break the trance of confusion and group brainwash, so you'd better return to your seat at once if you want to get 'it'. They just want to help you have a 'clearing'. When your wallet is thoroughly cleared and the real estate agent, I mean new 'friend', has sold you a condemned building in the bad part of town that no one else wants, then you will truly know you've gotten 'it'. You may proceed to the next level. Sign here. Oh, and open your wallet please.

I've done the Landmark Forum and subsequent courses. I could give my opinion about Kurby Urner's comments, but really, what difference would it make. After all, it would then just be my opinion. I got an enormous amount of freedom around my relationships and how I view myself and the world from the Landmark distinctions and community. Quite simply, I got to see that my thoughts, feelings and opinions are just that - mine. Like every human being, I have it that things (people, governments, organisations, etc) 'should be' a certain way. That just left me being right, making others wrong, and making absolutely no difference. It had me be a victim to my own circumstances, leaving me frustrated and powerless. My daughter has anorexia nervosa, and my experience was much the same - righteous and opinionated as to what she 'should' do about it and how she 'should' be, and frustrated and heartbroken that I couldn't make a difference. Not to mention scared. Being right got in the way of me getting her world, and having her communicate with me in a way that was never possible before. When I gave up being right, immediately her view of herself and what's healthy for her shifted. She is now living a healthy life. Her psyciatrist said to me at the last session 'I wish all my patients parents could see this like you have'. Another wonderful thing I got from my participation is a loving relationship with my dad. My opinions about him also got in the way of an amazing relationship. It's simple really - I can go through life being right, or I can make a difference in any area of life that is important to me. Because of Landmark Education, I know the difference. Get that you will all have an opinion, and you really have no say over it, but it is not the truth. One thing is for sure, it will keep a lid on what is possible for you and your life if you are attached to them like they are the truth.

Hats off, IJDLC! and a brief comment to Juanita: Opinions are not reality is an important though seemingly obvious truth.

But you can have the same realization from less exploitative organizations than Landmark.

Although there are many opinions about Landmark, there are some FACTS:

-Landmark makes $60 million a year.

-Landmark uses unpaid volunteers.

-Over 2300 US troops have died in Iraq.

-Rumsfeld uses the exact same words as Landmark trainers.

Draw your own conclusions.

Binaldi reminds us that Rumsfeld uses the exact same words as Landmark trainers.

The worst warmongers in the world are also purportedly followers of the world's greatest pacifist - Jesus.

Draw your own conclusions.

Anybody can cherrypick words for their own use.

That people can fail to live up to their role models high standards is a fact of life. But when their role model is a sociopath who apparently raped his own daughter, left the country owing $14 million in taxes (from EST) then you have to wonder what his heirs are capable of...

... Maybe lying to the country to start wars for profit for one.

PS Jesus never netted any $67 million/yr from HIS ministry.

Landmark Education is a Global public company, and like all businesses - has running costs. It cannot make its programs available without incurring such costs. No one shareholder, whom are all staff members, receives any dividend. All profits go into developing the programs. Regarding the 'unpaid volunteers' known as assistants, or program leaders, what one gets for themselves from their assisting is far greater than what one gives, and all assistants and leaders are trained at a very high level. I can only speak for myself, and what I have got for myself from causing others to experience themselves as causing breakthroughs in their own lives is quite extraordinary. I don't have an issue with not being paid for my time, any more than I do regarding the time I put into parenting, schooling, research and reading, sport, or being a part of my friend's lives, or even in intimate relationships. Of course I was initially skeptical of this view, as it is not a common thing for one to give up one's time for the most part, complete strangers. But making a difference out there, has a profound difference be made within. On our death beds we are probably more interested in how much we contributed in life than how much money we could have made. Furthermore, for myself personally, as a result of my assisting and receiving the training provided, I have become much more efficient with my time and have a much higher income in the hours I do do paid work.

Dear Cosmic Iguana - What world do you live in? What's you experience right now of being alive? It sounds kind of creepy to me and not a world I'd want to live inside of - what could be possible in your life if you spoke only great things? I declare you're committed to life working for all - thanks for the web site - judi

I'm living in a creepy beach town in CA, overlooking the creepy beach and breathing that creepy sea air.

If I spoke only of great things I would be in denial about the truly creepy things that are going on all around the world.

I do in fact also declare that I'm committed to life working for all, even though I know its Landmark doublespeak, which is in fact why I posted this and everything else on this site.

If you tried living in the world I live in and not the fantasy Landmark world you've been taught to live in, you might find that you could actually make more of a difference and not have your training money going to Werner's brother's Swiss bank accounts and donations to Republican candidates.

Landmark like any other program creates a perspective. While those that benefit from it can tend to become evangelistic about it, those that don't probably curse it for the rest of their lives. Your forum leader will take a stand for your transformation, and over the course of three days people will laugh, clap, cry, vomit their darkest secrets in front of hundreds of people. So you come out of the Forum, transformed, your eyes shining, your skin glowing blah blah and in your transformed state try to enroll your friend to take Landmark. All's going well until he asks you to go f**k yourself because you're suddenly behaving like a religious fanatic, something he obviously hasn't seen you do before. In no time at all, I'm talking days, maybe hours, mishaps that would ordinarily not affect you suddenly seem like catastrophes, Landmark calls 'breakdowns'. Before you know it you're crawling back to Landmark for 'support'.

The technology is flawless, but the many drivers of this gigantic thought transforming machine are mere humans, prone to error and entropy.

P.S. If you do decide to take Landmark, please look up Werner Erhard. It's discussed in selected detail at the programme

I just had to respond to a few of Kirby Urner's hysterically paranoid posting.

He claims that Landmark is not an accredited educational organization. Actually it is. Continuing Education Units are awarded for several of their programs.

"going to give you a name tag with a secret profile number 1-5 in order to best 'market' you"

Actually the number is no secret. It is the number of the room for that guest's group introduction. They try to limit the guest rooms to less than 10 people each to allow for more personal interaction.

Landmark has presented programs for The US State Department, Fortune 500 companies, and many other mainstream organizations. It is highly unfortunate that Donald Rumsfeld has chosen to inappropriately try to use one of their concepts to justify his incompetence.

The Forum is about taking responsibility for oneself, acting with integrity, and making amends for past misdeeds. Part of the process involves learning to distinguish between reality and our interpretations of reality.

Mr. Urner's confusion over diagrams and such simply underscore the fact that he doesn't understand what it is he thinks he is condemning. The diagrams are used to help participants learn to distinguish between things that happened and the stuff we made up in the moment ABOUT what happened. What happened is real. What we made up about it is interpretation. There is great personal power to be gained by learning this distinction.

Unfortunately, most of us go through life living as though our interpretations are reality. This is often a source of great pain and suffering. It is one layer of what eastern philosophies refer to as "the illusion" of life. It is the illusion that the stories in our heads are real.

I could literally take each of his points and point out their flaws and underlying misperceptions. AND, that would be far more than anyone would wade through. I will say that the good done by Landmark's programs and their graduates FAR outweigh any perceived negatives. And Mr. Urner's list is both laughable and ironic in that most of the items he lists are interpretations on his part which only reflect his own view of life and lack of understanding of what he is talking about.

Hmm.... Why do Kirby Urner's comments get so much flack I wondered.

Then I scrolled back up and found that he said NONE of the things ascribed to him, and in fact it was the commenter BELOW him named "Just Don't Like Cults" that made the comments. A lack of attention to detail that is telling considering how many Landmark junkies followed suit in lemming-like fashion.

As someone who knows people in a lower middle-management position (unpaid of course) in Landmark, I can tell you that virtually everything "Just Don't Like Cults" said is true.

Landmark spies on its customers, and maintains dossiers on them for marketing purposes. Not much different than many corporations, but thoroughly unethical in any kind of therapeutic context. I won't take the space to go into details on the rest, but as they say "Consider the possibilities" if these are true.

As Ron Suskind wrote 2 years ago about Bushco:

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality..." http://tinyurl.com/y3gurr

We. Create. Our. Own. Reality.

Sound familiar?

Given Rummie's Zen poem, I'd say that there's some support to the premise of the original posting that all is not Christianity in Bushland, but rather the fickle finger of Werner Erhard has tickled many in BushCo well, and with disastrous results...

Landmark does not believe in empirical realities either, so it is no wonder that like BushCo they pay so little attention to detail, but the realities on the ground in Iraq and all their other fiascos cannot be wished so easily away.

Thank you, Josephus for pointing out the misperception regarding which name is associated with which post. Since Mr. Urner's name was in the same box as the comments it appeared they were associated with him. An honest mistake, not some kind of lemming-like reaction.

Is it any surprise that bu$h and friends misuse the work of Landmark? They also misuse the Constitution, Jesus, the courts, the media, you name it.

Regarding your specific comments regarding Landmark's practices ... There is no dossier kept for marketing purposes. There is a questionaire which course participants complete upon registration. In addition to boilerplate stuff like name, phone, number and address, it also asks specific questions regarding the person's reason's for taking the course and what they hope to get out of their participation. This information may be referred to during the course by the person assisting the course leader to support the participant in attaining those goals.

As far as your comment about a "therapeutic context" that is simply untrue. Their work is not therapeutic and makes no claim to be so. In fact, Landmark goes out of their way to make certain people are clear that their programs are not therapeutic in nature and are not intended to be. They are for healthy, productive people who want more from their experience of life.

Your last paragraph is telling in terms of your lack of understanding of what Landmark is about. They define reality purely in empirical terms. Something is real if it is measurable - has dimensionality - and exists in time and space. Everything else is interpretation and story.

It is the interpretations that are malleable. And it is a question of integrity whether one is honest in their use of facts to support their opinions.

Rush Limbaugh is a master of interpretation. His whole shtick is to take two or three completely unrelated factoids and then make up a theory that connects them and makes liberals and Democrats look bad. AND the power of the Landmark work allows graduates listening to him to recognize his crap and know how to deconstruct his bullshit.

Just because the power of this work can be used with evil intent does not make the work bad or wrong. If I use a hammer to build a porch that is appropriate use of the power that a hammer represents. If I use it to bash my neighbor's brains in that is a very inappropriate use of that same power. Meanwhile, its the same hammer.

And another point I'd like to add. If I had to gauge the liberal/conservative balance of Landmark grads I'd say it's roughly 80-20. Possibly even more tilted towards liberalism. This is generally not the kind of program that attracts conservatives. And the idea of Landmark money going to Republicans is equally laughable. Again, this is why the Rumsfeld comment is so lamentable, because it creates the appearance of an association which is actually about 180 degrees out of whack.

And if you think the folks at Landmark pay little attention to detail then you are WAY off base. That is where the juice of the course is - the details. It is a rigorous examination of life, and the details are the key to distinguishing the real from everything else. And the questions asked by the course leader are designed to elicit those details in example after example to forward the understanding of how to make these distinctions.

So please, stop pontificating on something of which you have little REAL knowledge.

BTW - the Landmark concept that is most powerful in understanding the bu$h administration's MO is that of "agreement". If enough people agree that something is real that accords it a great deal of "potential realness" - my terminology. But again, it is not ultimately real unless it can be measured and exists in space and time.

What the right wing does is swamp the media with their bullshit talking points and get enough people believing their lies that they gain the appearance of being true. But that certainly doesn't make them REALLY true because they fail the ultimate test for reality. And with the bu$hies, in most cases what they call truth are not even valid interpretations/stories because of bu$hco's inherent intellectual dishonesty.

But again, just because they use some of Landmark's concepts in a way that lacks integrity does not mean that Landmark lacks intgegrity or that there is something wrong with their programs. That's like saying that since law school teaches slick debating skills, and bu$h lawyers use these slick skills to screw America, that law schools and their curricula are to blame and are somehow a sick cultish pox on the country. Grow up.

Oh, I forgot to point out a misstatement in the original post. The Landmark nugget that Rumsfeld tortured is actually from their guest introduction, not from the course. So it is quite possible that he picked up this piece of info without ever actually doing the course to be able to place it in proper context.

During the intro the course leader draws a circle on the board and begins slicing it into pieces of a pie-chart. The entire circle represents all available knowledge. A small slice of that is what you know you know. These are things like your name, occupation, how to tie your shoes, etc. There is also a much bigger slice of things you know that you don't know - brain surgery for example. You know it exists, but you don't have a clue as to how to do it. The rest of the circle is stuff that you don't even have a clue about - what you don't know that you don't know. And some of that stuff is at the core of the things that hold you back from achieving and attaining what you desire in life.

The Landmark Forum is about those things which, if you become aware of them, have an immediate and dramatic positive impact on the quality of your life. Things like when I discovered that I am "guilt waiting to happen." This was a very powerful realization for me. I could see how all my life when something went wrong I would immediately start trying to figure out what I did wrong or didn't do right to cause the situation. I had no idea that this was operating in the background almost my entire life. Seeing it freed me from being driven by it. I'm still pulled that way, but now I know to stop and consider the facts and determine whether I'm REALLY guilty, or whether its just my same old story popping up.

kb, I appreciate your articulate presentation.

Actually, I have a lot more knowledge of Landmark than you might think. I have numerous friends in and ex- Landmark. Most are enthusiastic then realize it is just another workshop. A few got sucked WAY in, scary in - devoting all their time to a cause that sounded good, but they knew little about.

I met Werner Erhard, and he is/was a charismatic individual who sounded impressive, but the next day you realized said nothing.

In science there are facts and interpretations, called theories. In science, theories are judged by the accuracy with which they explain facts. In Landmark, all interpretations except Landmark are stories. Landmark makes an impressive case, but they never debate it (unlike science) in a context where they don't have the upper hand.

If 80% of Landmark grads are liberals, then that is sad. Because Werner and his family are Repubs, his brother even ran for office as one, and the model they support is nothing more than business individualism .

BTW, they do start with "just" a questionnaire. But every course, and every meeting with their "community" co-ordinator adds to the dossier.

kb, you sound like a great person, but Landmark is just not worthy of you. Read Just Don't like Cults again, and consider that he too may know alot more about Landmark (from the inside) than you think.

Take the good out of it, which there is some, but keep thinking critically and moving on...

A comment exchange by kb_man and Josephus on this topic was moved so as not to dominate future discussion.

Interested parties can read it here:

http://www.cosmiciguana.com/2007/03/comments_by_kb_man_and_josephu.html